Sunday, March 1, 2009

Dira Bitachtonim

I originally wrote this as a comment, but I thought I'd turn it into a post:

My teachers in yeshiva tried to convince me that chassidus (kabbalah based philosophy) explains the ultimate meaning of life and the universe. It pretty much boils down to this (ask a Lubavitcher if you don't believe me):
Q: Why do we and the universe exist?

A: God wanted to have a dwelling place in a lowly realm ("Nisaveh hakadosh baruch hu lihiyos lo dira bitachtonim"), so he created the world and put Jews in it so they can make the world ready for Him by doing mitzvos.

Q: Why did God want to do this?

A: It was a taivah (desire), and you can't question a taivah (i.e. desires are irrational, and that's that).
Now, I don't pretend to know the "meaning of it all" (maybe there isn't one), but I definitely don't find the above explanation to be satisfactory (for reasons obvious to the un-dogmatized). And anyway, it's all based on "revelation" (that's the definition of kabbalah) without evidence, so why should I believe it to be true?

I'd rather put my eggs in science's basket, and use reason and evidence to TRY to understand the universe. We may ultimately be unsuccessful, but I find no comfort in pretending to know things I don't.

32 comments:

  1. But there are limits to science too. The recent attempt to smash protons against each other in an underground lab in central Europe was done to see "what would happen?".
    Science explains the physical. Chabad attempts to explain the mystical. They are two separate spheres. You're right to want to understand science to explain the physical world but it can't explain the sum of your total existence.

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  2. I think what you're missing Apikores is that there is a different explanation for the fossils which is consistent with Judaism. This means that atheism has no rational basis.

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/02/domino-theory.html

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  3. Garnel,

    I said clearly in my post that science does not yet explain everything. Also, you are misrepresenting the Large Hadron Collider to an astonishing degree, I think you should at least read the wikipedia article. They are not just "seeing what happens," they have been planning elaborate experiments for years, to test concrete predictions of a number of theories.

    Additionally, religion may be trying to explain "the mystical", but if it's just guesses not based on evidence, why should I accept any of it? There are many different "theories of the mystical" but they are all equally untested.

    JP, LOL

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  4. > They are not just "seeing what happens," they have been planning elaborate experiments for years, to test concrete predictions of a number of theories.

    Right, they're running the experiements to see what happens, ie. which of their theories is correct. If they the outcome for certain, why do the excitement?

    > why should I accept any of it? There are many different "theories of the mystical" but they are all equally untested.

    Yeah, but you're applying physical standards to metaphysical subjects. As you obviously realize, you can't scientifically test religious ideas. Rather, that's the domain of the philosopher. If you want to discuss those issues, the parameters are completely different.

    As for JP, you should feel honoured. He didn't accuse you of being a sex-obsessed monster.

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  5. Well, I think that the fact that Apikores chooses to laugh rather than repent indicates that his atheism has nothing to do with science and everything to do with sexual compulsion.

    LOL. ROFL.

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  6. what a wack job i hope you sit in hell.

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  7. Garnel,

    There are a number of different theories which are going to be tested at the LHC (eg. Higgs and supersymmetry), some may be correct and some may not, but we'll only know once they are tested. Nobody claims to know what the outcomes will be. My point was that it is misleading to say "they're smashing things together just to see what happens" since the experiments are very well designed to test very specific predictions.

    And what are the "different parameters" I need to discuss religious ideas? How should we test the truth value of religious claims? Should we just say they are all equally valid even when they contradict each other?

    JP, LOL. ROFL. LMFBO.

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  8. i wonder when was the last time jp got any? the guy seems overly obsessed with sex.

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  9. Somehow, I am not too impressed by anonymous, sexually compulsive scumballs.

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/jewish-skeptics-and-sex.html

    But maybe it's just me.

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  10. dude no one wants to go to your disgusting blog i should bring this to malkiel cotlars attention so he can ban you to.

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  11. JP, why the fascination with sexual compulsion?

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  12. Because that's what's driving atheism. It sure isn't science.

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/03/climate-change-and-evolution.html

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  13. where do you base that opinion from jp?

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  14. Just read my blog. Anyway, it's obvious. What's driving Holocaust denial? Anti-semitism. What's driving atheism? Sex.

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  15. yes because the people spearheading holocaust denial are atheist and ahmedinejad is one to.

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  16. you need to stop bashing people and show true ahavas yisroel in these days before moshiach. as the rebbe explains the way to bring moshiach is to show love to every human being.

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  17. Hating atheists and heretics is a big mitzvah.
    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2007/12/good-hatred.html

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  18. fool apikorsim are only people who know kol hatorah kula. this doesnt apply to someone who can barely learn chumash with rashi as most of these kids are. now some people over at 7fatcow are real apikorsim and thats where you should waster your time not on a butch of misguided souls that learnt very little torAH.

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  19. Fakewood,

    I'm sure I don't know "kol hatorah kulo," but I hope I know enough that you can consider me a real apikores (I went to yeshiva until I was 20 years old and was considered top of my class - but that's not saying much since it was a Lubavitch yeshiva, and it's well known that there's not much learning in Lubavitch these days.)

    JP,

    Do you really think that if God existed he'd be so insecure as to command the faithful to hate the non-believers? (That's rhetorical, since you obviously think He does exist and did command so)

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  20. listen imagine you told me you went to school till you were 20 and thats why you dont need to go to college because you already know enough.

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  21. That wasn't my point. So you think if I knew more Torah I wouldn't be an atheist?

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  22. thats a very hypothetical question. that being said due to my BELIEF i think its a possibility. i dont really have a clear answer for that.

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  23. But do you think it's possible that someone can know "kol hatorah kulo" and yet come to the conclusion that there is no basis for belief in god?

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  24. yea there is such a thing and if you look in toras menachem chelek sheni purim tof shin chof gimmel page 218. you can understand al pi chassidus why its possible and what it means.

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  25. Unfortunately I left all my seforim at my parents house.

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  26. if i email you the text would you bother looking at it.

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  27. I'll definitely read it. I'm curious to know what the Rebbe thought about atheism, it's not something they talked to us about in yeshiva.

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  28. that's cause most teacher today are people who couldn't go on shlichus and couldn't get another job. whats your email as well?

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  29. When I first saw the title I thought you were talking about getting a boner in the yeshiva dorms.

    I may have thought too deeply into the thing.

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  30. "...getting a boner in the yeshiva dorms."

    LOL! chassidishe chalomos mit chassidishe maidelach.

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